Kelly Paredes & Sean Tibor teach Python in a middle school in Florida, and talk about this experience on the podcast “Teaching Python”.
Transcript for episode 67 of the Test & Code Podcast
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Welcome to Test and Code podcast about software development and software testing.
In today’s episode, we talk with Kelly Brady and Sean Taylor. They teach Python in middle school in Florida, and they also talk about this experience on their podcast Teaching Python. I like the podcast a lot, and I love that they include physical computing right from the start in their teaching curriculum and really everything else they’re doing. This is a fun interview, and I hope you get a lot out of it. Thank you to PyCharm for sponsoring this episode.
Today on Test and Code, we have Sean and Kelly from Teaching Python podcast. Welcome, both of you.
Thank you for having us.
How long have you been doing the podcast? So far?
We have 1213 episodes recorded. I think we started. When did we start? August, September?
No. Our first episode was published December 5.
December 5. Okay.
Well, welcome to the world of podcasting.
Thank you.
You teach software or computer science at a grade school level, is that correct?
Yes. We teach at a private school that’s PK to twelve, pre K to twelve, and we teach in the middle school. I teach 7th grade and Shawn teaches six and eight.
Okay, so six 7th and 8th graders. So what are the ages.
Again for all the nonparents out there ranges from probably eleven to 14.
Yeah. Okay.
Do you have other classes you’re teaching, too, or are you just computer science teachers?
So we, in addition to teaching our computer science, also teach with other teachers. So we are both educational technology specialists, which means that we work with the other teachers in our middle school to help them integrate technology into their lesson plans and learning. So, for example, we’ve done things with our English teachers around how to use AI in reading and writing and interpreting technology.
And we’ve also worked with our science teachers and pretty closely around things like physics models and gathering data and analyzing that data. We actually did a really cool unit just a couple of weeks ago around simulating genetic organisms and how genetic traits are passed from generation to generation. So we’ve done all that using Python and a lot of data science work in a way that makes sense for middle school students.
Yeah. And my role is a little bit more boring. I do a lot of other things Besides just the Python. I drag Shawn out of classroom a lot, and we do the fun things together. But I do subscriptions and all troubleshooting and everything else that’s technology related for the teachers. So pretty much teacher training at a basic level with an addition to Python and computer science. And then we also do robotics, so we kind of do everything we do everything related to technology use in the middle school.
So robotics, is that a class or is that like an after school activity?
It’s a class, but it’s kind of an elected class. So we have four teams for the Lego League.
Okay.
This is the First Robotics Lego League. Have you ever heard of that? It’s a pretty cool program where our students build Lego robots that compete in games, but they also create projects that solve real world problems and compete against other teams around the area, the state and the country.
We have two teams going to regionals next weekend, so we’ve made it through the first round. Should they say so we have two kids that are going into regionals, and one of our groups are actually looking at forming an AI robodog for the astronauts.
Wow.
Yeah. So they’re at the basic level where it sentences and maybe it barks using breadboard. I think they’re using Raspberry Pi.
And they’re using a circuit playground.
Circuit playground. Okay.
I think it’s so cool that I listened to a lot of your episodes, and it sounds like you integrate stuff like the Raspberry Pi or the circuit Python, those Adafruit boards with teaching early on. I think that it’s kind of a cool thing to involve physical interaction with the world, not just building Web pages or something.
Yeah. We try to do everything we can. We only have our students for nine weeks, so we throw as much as they can take.
Is it a requirement for everybody or is it elective?
Our cost is a current requirement, and they do it in quarters. So nine weeks.
Okay.
And all six, 7th and 8th. In fact, all of our kids at our school have computer science in their program starting at PK. My son does computer programming with an Ed tech specialist in class as well. So they do little block codes with the iPads and codable and things like that.
He was telling you the other day that he was debugging, right?
Yeah, he was debugging. So they learn more of the computational thinking at the lower level, and we get them. So they’ve had the computational thinking, they’ve had block kind of programs. They’ve used scratch, and we get them, and we introduced them to Python this year.
This is a private school. I went up through the public school system, and my kids are in the public school system as well as the school district require you to have a certain curriculum. Is there, like a teach to the test kind of thing going on?
No, not at our level. I mean, really, at the private school areas of our state, at least, there’s a lot of latitude given to the private schools to be able to incorporate a lot of different curriculum into their model. So as Kelly mentioned, our school chose about three and a half, four years ago to make computer science a fundamental part of our education at every grade level. Now, in the public school sector, it really depends more on a school district by school district basis and state by state basis. So there are requirements in each state for teaching, but there are also some international standards that are created through professional bodies that create here are the different standards or the different things that students should be learning at every grade level to put them on half towards literacy and computer science.
Yeah. So, for example, most States have state standards, and that’s probably what you’re used to in your school, is a set of state mandated standards or government standards. Some schools have even the governmental standards. In an international or independent school, you’re governed by independent bodies. So we have an accreditation committee that makes sure that we’re on top of our standards. But what Sean is talking about, we also follow ISTI standards. So ISTI is the international.
I forgot. What is he stands for? I’m sorry.
International Society of Technology Educator.
There you go. Okay. And so we do a lot of stuff with them following their standards, I should say, and taking a lot of their courses. And most private schools usually follow Isty standards, so they’re technology focus.
Okay. It kind of hurts my head to think about because it seems like the field is moving so fast that as soon as you standardize anything, it would be out of date.
It’s done really well at standardizing. It because they’re very vague.
Okay.
Be good citizens online and use the proper technologies to communicate. So I think that’s why a lot of people like their standards, because they are focused around the emerging technologies. And Sean and I both took a course already in AI with ISTI, and it was a really great course, I think, with a lot of resources.
Okay.
The other thing that I would add to that is that I think most of the schools and most of the governing bodies are really not necessarily working to get students to become proficient in a specific language or a specific set of technology skills or libraries or anything like that. What they’re looking for is to get them to develop the foundational skills that can help those students learn new languages, learn new libraries, a way of thinking. It’s another tool in your toolbox for how to solve problems when it’s done. Right.
Yeah. I mean, I’ve always been thinking about how there’s a lot of science classes, science and math classes when I was growing up that were like we used chemistry is often used as a problem solving vehicle. And then things like geometry is where we did, like, logical thinking, improved systems. And it seems like those sorts of lessons might be easier to teach in a programming environment.
That’s one of our venues. We like to get in with the science teachers. And Sean likes to launch and put a lot of data collectors and the Rockets and play with a lot of opportunities just to show the science teachers how we can incorporate the two Sciences together. So it’s kind of fun.
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I would encourage everybody that’s involved with teaching to listen to your podcast. I listened to it because I wanted to pay attention to what Python podcasts are out there, of course. But also, I think the way you approach it, it seems relevant to anybody that’s trying to teach any sort of technology skill to other people. It doesn’t seem like it’s specific to young kids because I don’t think you teach a levy or that much different than you teach a grown up. Are you teaching programming to the other teachers.
Or is that something Seanja is teaching programming to me.
The funny thing is we’re mentors for each other, and I think that’s how our podcast came about. I’m his mentor because Sean’s a new teacher.
You can say he’s a marketer and he came into the field because he’s just got a phenomenal brain when he came in and we just loved what he did with the kids and how much knowledge he had. And I’ve been teaching for 20 years, and I love everything to do with curriculum. So he mentors me and picks on me when I make all the mistakes, and I do the same to him when he makes no mistakes in teaching, though.
Sean, you came from marketing.
My education is actually information systems. I got a bachelor’s degree and master’s degree in information systems a long time ago and went into the field of it. I was a program manager, a systems manager. I ran projects, developed chemical inventory databases and marketing systems and things like that, and really got into the wave that was happening in digital marketing right about the mid 2000s and transitioned over to be a digital marketing manager. I worked for Procter and Gamble for nearly ten years and really throughout my career have loved using technology to solve problems. And so I’ve always written a little bit of code here and there. I’ve always been kind of a technology focused business person. And about a year ago I had the opportunity to interview at Pinecrest because the school that I’m at now, because I really saw how pervasive technology is becoming and the world that my children are growing up in, the world that these students are growing up in, there’s more and more technology every day. And one of the best things I can do to kind of pay it forward and help the next generation is to set them up with real practical strategies and skills for coping with this new world that they’re living in. And if I can find a few students that really get into it and go further and take it to a very high level, that’s great. And I’m excited about that. But I’m also excited about just kind of your average student being more code literate, being more technology literate, and being able to thrive in the world that’s coming in the next 15 to 20 years and pretty much just find a use for it.
Right. The kids that don’t really like coding, I think that’s something we both do is just we try to get those kids just to realize that you don’t have to know how to code, but you really need to realize that these things are in your back pocket, in your backpack, in your houses, and you need to understand what the implications are and how it’s going to change the world. So it’s one of our focus.
That’s cool. So do you know if any of your students or your students parents listen to the podcast?
I don’t know.
I have maybe about two parents that follow me on Twitter, but our school is just now starting to retweet us a lot. It’s funny because we kind of did this without not without them knowing. We told them we were going to do this, but we were just like, we’re not going to promote this yet. We don’t want to embarrass anyone because we just like talking a lot. So I think that’s how it came about. And so I’m not sure. I know our students don’t really listen to us. I think they hear us enough.
So what’s the reaction been from the school administrators or the people you work with that way to the person they’ve been thrilled.
They really like seeing us go out and make connections and share our knowledge with others.
That’s awesome.
So it’s been a really supportive environment.
Yeah. And a couple of the people up above us. They’ve listened to it. They’ve even said, wow, you’re actually very interesting.
And just on a side note, even in my former school, I do have people in my former school listening. And one of the board members from my former school, she uses it for her. She has a Corporation called Crayon Code, and she gives it to her teachers to listen to because they’re introducing the micro Python and Scratch. So it is making its way around with schools. Okay, that’s pretty cool. And I know our lower school teachers listen to us.
Well, I have some specific questions about the logistics of how this all works. So you’re teaching coding to kids.
What does the homework look like and how do you grade that?
We asked for a Tinker, which is an online program challenge program.
Coding education website, I guess is probably the closest thing to it, but it’s designed for K through eight students. So it’s pretty engaging for the kinds of students that we’re working with. And we’ve essentially flipped the classroom. So if you think about a traditional classroom, most of the classrooms that we are familiar with, you’d go in and listen to the teacher, and the teacher will be presenting information to you. They’d be giving you the learning, and then you would go home and do homework to practice it. And what we’ve done is actually flipped that classroom around where they’re doing more of their learning in Tinker and trying it out and practicing it and going at their own pace and struggling with a little bit and having a breakthrough. And then they come into the classroom and instead of spending our time presenting information to them, we can now start practicing it in the classroom. We can start playing with it. We can start saying, okay, here are these different concepts that you learned in Tinker. How do we fit those together in the classroom where we’re all together and we can learn from each other? We end up being more like guides or coaches through that process rather than the traditional teacher presenting at the front of the room. Here’s all the information, and maybe 10% of the kids are actually paying attention.
Yeah. And our thoughts on the Tinker is it’s kind of like learning Spanish ten minutes a night of Tinker to work through it. So most some schools use Tinker as the classroom because most teachers there’s not a lot of teachers that know how to teach Python or teach coding. So these Tinker and Code, Monkey Island and all these other kid platforms were designed to help educate our computer science into the curriculum. So we kind of use it as a homework thing. It’s a completion grade, which means we give them credit for doing it and we don’t have a time constraint. Only the time constraint is nine weeks. So at the end of nine weeks, if you’re not done, then you don’t get the grades. So we kind of want them to feel that it’s okay to take longer because some kids will whip through it and some kids will struggle. So the whole idea that it’s a non challenging, relaxed environment, we want them to understand that it is hard, but we’re not going to grade you against how well you can code or not.
So do they turn in their work through the Tinker system or something then?
Yeah. So that’s just for homework. So it is like a whole teacher platform. It’s really nice. It has a whole Gradebook system. We can see when the kids finish the assignments and we just check it off the box. But that’s not really our curriculum. That’s kind of our supportive system.
Okay.
And then for the rest of the things, most of the time we just do challenges and projects.
We do things a little bit different depending on how we teach. So every teacher has a different approach, but we anchor our curriculum around a few solid things, learning the concepts, using Tinker and doing challenges, many challenges or longer challenges.
And then wrapping it up with a project, with a project so that they have something that helps them integrate their knowledge together, make connections, practice it, make mistakes, learn from them. And that gives us a lot of opportunities as teachers to assess them along the way. It’s not a final grade that we present or that we assess them on. It’s a series of smaller assessments along the way. And the benefit of that is that it allows us to guide the student towards the outcome that they desire. So that they’re saying, oh, I’m early stages. I’m defining my problem. I’m gathering requirements. If we can help them with an assessment at that point that gets them on the right path, that’s more valuable to them than getting all the way to the end and realizing that there was a fundamental flaw back in the beginning that they could have corrected.
Right?
Yeah.
So it’s kind of like we want to create an iterative process for them rather than like a waterfall grading system along the way.
And it’s a little bit crazy because we all have a basic bar level and we want them to understand for loops. We want to understand conditionals list. You’re doing Dictionaries and Tuples. I kind of avoid them a little bit. We go as far as list, but we have a basic level, a bar, and all of our kids so far have surpassed the bar. And we were just talking about how our curriculum is going to expand so much next year and where our bars are going to be set because it’s going to be different. But it’s really nice.
It’s amazing how far the kids have gone and they’re learning in nine weeks.
Okay. Now, since I’m kind of a testing kind of guy, I’m curious if testing plays a role in either your grading or automating of the systems or in teaching at all.
So yes, in a limited fashion. So this being our first year, what we really do, instead of a formal testing framework where we are doing test driven design or we have a lot of automated testing of assignments, we’re not there yet, either the students or the teachers. But what we are doing is starting to get them into this mindset of intention versus outcome and the gap between the two so that they start to see what did you intend for the code to do? What did you design it to do? What was the actual result? And then what was the difference between the two? So that we’re laying the groundwork of the framework for them to start thinking in a way of being able to write those test cases later that fit into that model with here’s what I want it to do. Here’s my test case that I can run against my code and then be able to start seeing the differences between the two so that even though we’re not there yet in the framework, maybe in a year or two, as these students start to have more Python, we can introduce more of those testing frameworks so that we can automate more of the work on our side. But they also start to get used to this idea of testing the code that you write and in fact, writing your code to be tested.
But at the end of the quarter, I do have one quiz that’s the scary quiz of the quarter that I have because I’m just that mean teacher things like 25 questions. But I don’t do a test for an assessment. I do test for learning. So they have the opportunity to take the test as many times as they want up to the time they get 100, and then I take an average of it. And mine again is that bottom line bar. And the kids get away. They get out of the test after I’ve scared them for the whole nine weeks. And I’m like, that was really easy. And I said, I know I need to make it harder. They’re just amazing how far the kids have come. And I just do the quiz at the end because it kind of makes it fun for them to stress them out a little bit.
I mean, it’s funny also because of the terminology of school, right? So when a programmer thinks about test and code, they’re thinking about assertions and passing tests or failing them as a metric for how well their code is working. When we say tests to our students, they suddenly have this panic attack, right?
They have a grade and there’s a score and their parents are going to see it. And so we have to break them of that a little bit. So we talk a lot about intent versus outcome. We don’t call it testing, but I can certainly foresee next year and the year after that, we start to introduce this code testing so that they start to see how they can use the language and the libraries to evaluate their code to make sure that it meets the criteria that they’re designing for the end.
You just want them to love the challenge, and that’s the test.
We want that intrinsic value.
When a teacher starts putting a grade of a failed because you couldn’t get the program and we move on, then what good does that do for that child? So we kind of want to build in that problem solving, that desire to have a struggle, all the things that all programmers that why do you become a programmer? Because you do it because you like to challenge yourself to solve problems. And that’s what we’re trying to get out of the kids. And we want to kind of take away that. Oh, it’s an AB thing. We want them to have a passion for learning versus just doing it for the grade.
Oh, that’s good. I like that idea. I actually really love that idea of intent versus outcome. And even when I’m trying to teach testing to people, I’ve been talking about how do you know that it works? And is there a way to automate that? And I like that intent versus outcome a bit more also, because even adults, for some reason with building something is fun, but writing tests for it is suddenly work instead of fun. I don’t have an answer for that. But trying to come up with a way to do that would be good. How about other stuff? Like, there’s a lot of stuff around computer science and at junior high level, I’m guessing you probably don’t get into a lot of it, but there’s like version control and technical speaking and technical writing and just communication skills. Are those things that other classes are talking about?
Well, we cover actually a lot of that in our classes. Also, we don’t quite get into version control and things like that. They are seeing some of that because I’ll post things on GitHub and there’ll be consumers of that repository or they’ll download from there, but they won’t necessarily create their own pull requests or branches or anything. But in terms of information literacy, that’s a big focus for us as well. Getting students to understand how to read technical instructions is a big starting point for us. I think some of the technical writing is done in a very basic level. We have them right. We haven’t been creating flowcharts to diagram out programs. We have them writing comments and instructions within their code to be able to just give them the habit of documenting things. But one of the things that we see that’s really fascinating, and I didn’t realize how much this was happening before I was working with middle school students is that we’re in such a skimming culture when it comes to content.
If you think about our students that are eleven to 14 years old. They’ve pretty much always had some sort of device in their home, whether it was a laptop, a tablet, iPhone, or whatever.
So you’ve been doing the podcast just for a few months now? A couple of months. I think you’ve been doing teaching. Is it just this first year, or have you been doing it longer?
This is our first year teaching Python at the school.
Okay.
I was teaching robotics last year, and then before that, I was teaching design thinking. So most of my basis is in problem solving and just looking at the design thinking process. But last year she came and said to me, by the way, we decided to go into physical computing. How do you feel about Python? I was like, no, JavaScript. I think I know a little bit more about JavaScript. She goes, no, we’re doing Python. And I’m like, but the kids like JavaScript, which I didn’t know what I was talking about. And then we brought in Sean, and that’s where it went with that. I think we just wanted to bring in the physical computing. We liked how England was using the microbit. It’s been a very successful, I think, implementation with the microbes and the physical computing and the pie raspberry Pi and the Pi top and all the other things that go with it, because there’s something about the kids being able to code five lines and turn a light an Led on. And it’s a little bit more engaging for the students.
My youngest is nine years old. She’s in fourth grade, and I haven’t taught her programming yet, but I’ve kind of been asking her about some of the ideas and all the stuff that she wants to do.
That she’d like to be able to do is a physical sort of thing. She’d like to be able to do the things like turning her lights on and off. She curious to know if there’s some way we can hook up her, like, window blinds to some software control or something.
There’s no part of her that’s saying, I’d like to build a website. She doesn’t really care about that right now. So I like that physical computing is going to be interesting to see how that plays out in the US.
And that’s how it engages. I think those are the two things that Sean and I really grasp on. So we’ll pretty much stop the class and talk to that student. Oh, you want to see an Alexa skill? And Sean will get there and say, well, how about this? And you want to make this. Okay, we’re going to try that. So I think that’s one of the things you want that curiosity, because that’s the driving force, because if there’s no problem to solve, then there’s no reason for them to code.
Okay.
So harness it. You start get her into it and sit down with her and start making her shades go up and down.
Yeah.
And then when the kids leave your school and they go off to high school. Does it build on itself there? And are they doing at least having the possibility of doing more advanced stuff?
So we have the high school here and most of our kids go in at the first to the AP level computer science and then afterwards.
Yeah. So they have several different AP classes in the Upper school.
Most of our students will go on and either in the next year or the year after that, they’ll take AP computer science principles, which is maybe only about 25 or 30% coding. And it’s more about the broader field of computer science and technology.
From there, they can opt to take a computer science, a AP test, and then the computer science B, and then one of the really cool things that we have after they finish their AP classes. So you’re following along at home. I guess that means that they’re going into their junior or senior year, depending on how much they’ve loaded up on computer science. We have a post AP Capstone course where they can explore either data structures and algorithms or artificial intelligence machine learning. In the Upper school, two of our students have actually created a machine learning club. So they are using the machine learning club to further their own understanding of AI and machine learning. But they’re getting into some pretty cool stuff with like TensorFlow and clustered computing and everything. So it’s pretty much there as far as they want to take it.
Yeah.
And that’s a 9th grader, a 9th grader who started he’s been working with FAU, which is Florida Atlantic University. And they’ve got a really big data science.
Pretty much if the kids have a passion for it, I think our school tries to help them utilize that. And like I said, we’re a PK twelve. So our kids all stay on the campus and that was one of the kids who stopped.
So it’s like they want to go further. They want to go in data science. That’s what they do. So we allow that.
Our attitude is really and I think this works for your daughter, too, with like the blinds and everything. I was going to say earlier, our goal is to always try to say yes. Right. So I want to do machine learning and artificial intelligence.
Okay.
Let me find ways to say yes to that. I want to learn how to make my own Alexa skill. Okay. Let’s figure out what it would take to do that. So our attitude is always more towards how can we make this happen? How can we encourage is how can we develop it? And that’s where we see our students really thrive and grow is when they’re given the opportunity and the support to go pursue one of those crazy, wild ideas that they have.
That’s cool. Yeah. I’ll be really looking forward to following you along on the podcast and following along with how things are going and touching base with you, like six months down the road and another year down the road and see where you’re at and see if things have changed. It’s pretty exciting. These kids, even when they’re leaving your class, I’m sure they’ve got a comparable level of programming than I had when I left College and then through high school. And it’s pretty cool.
It’s exciting to think about what these kids are going to end up doing when they’re in their 20s and 30s, building all sorts of companies that we can’t even think about.
It’s scary just for me, thinking what they’re going to do next year when our new fifth graders come up, they learn faster than me. So I’m constantly getting up and trying to get ahead of them, but it took me a year is taking them nine weeks. So that’s just something to always thinking about. These kids are getting quicker at learning it.
I had a couple more questions I wanted to make sure I asked. So they’re starting learning bits of it, even starting in kindergarten. What happens with, like, a kid that comes in halfway through or midway through they transfer in and they don’t have any of that background information.
Is that hard for them to jump in?
It’s funny you say that, because I had two kids that came into my 7th grade course this year who came from a Montessori and who had never had a computer, and it was their first year, first quarter with me, and I was like, control, copy, copy, and paste. Why aren’t you copying and pasting? And he’s like, I had a tablet and iPad. I don’t know how to copy and paste, so the kids actually picked it up really quick. It will be interesting to see what happens as we progress in the years, but I think they’re pretty durable, these kids, so they kind of just go with the flow and they find ways to excel.
Okay.
I think you’ll find that with pretty much kids across the world, they’ll find a way.
Is there, like, a competitive aspect to it, or are they pretty collaborative with each other?
I would say highly collaborative until we’re doing, like, a quiz in the class and they’re trying to compete to see if you can get the answer first. Then I might get a little out of hand at times.
It’s always food involved when that happens. I always bring up the ante, even for a banana today.
So they do get a little bit competitive when there’s something like that involved, but most of the time they’re helpful.
Okay.
The other thing would add to it is that this is kind of their testing ground for how to collaborate. So they’re learning how to choose a good team member, how to work with team members that are different than you. I usually remind most of my students before they embark on a team challenge, not to pick their best friend because your best friend may be your best friend and there’s a good reason why you like that person and you want to spend time with them, but you may not actually work well together. So how do you pick a good teammate? And usually they go back and they pick their best friend and they struggle through it and then they come back and they say, yeah, I should have picked someone else but they learn from that. They pick that up. This is all new to them. They’re growing and absorbing so much information.
That’s why middle school is some of the best years to teach Because I’m seeing already in my first year of teaching so much growth and change even over the last four or five months that once students get older into high school or even in College, they’re just not changing as quickly. So this is a really interesting time Where kids are just doing so much and they have so much going on. It’s really a fascinating process to watch.
Yeah, I think they’re like little sponges in middle school. You’ll see next year with your daughter.
Well, my older one is in College now so been through it once already.
So for everybody wanting to follow along, you guys are at teachingpython FM, is that right?
Correct.
Okay. That’s right. And we’re on most of the major podcast networks. If you’re not finding us on your podcast or of choice, Definitely send us an email. We want to be as available and as convenient as possible.
Okay. Awesome. Well, thanks a lot for joining me today.
Thank you so much for having us. It’s fun.
Thanks, Brian.
Thanks again to pike arm for sponsoring the show. Get an extended four months to play with pycharm at testandcode.com PyCharm. That link is also in the show notes at testandcode.com 67. The show notes also have links to Sean and Kelly’s info as well as their podcast teaching Python. Thank you to Patreon support. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you and thank you everyone else for listening and for spreading the word about this show. That’s all for now. Now go out and test something.