Julian Sequeira is Co-Founder of PyBit.es (a blog/platform created to teach and learn Python) and a Python Trainer at Talk Python Training. He’s also a survivor of the 100DaysOfCode in Python Challenge.

Transcript for episode 60 of the Test & Code Podcast

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Welcome to Test and Code, a podcast about software development and software testing.

Julian Sequira is cofounder of Pi Bytes, a platform created to teach and learn Pi Python. He’s also a survivor of the 100 Days of Code Python Challenge. On today’s episode, Julian and I talk about the 100 Days Challenge, about learning Python and about how cool it is to learn within a community. Thank you to Digital Ocean for sponsoring this episode. Check them out at destinco.com DigitalOcean and listen to their segment later in the show.

Today on Testing Code, I’ve got Julian Sequira. We’re going to talk about a whole bunch of stuff, but partly he’s got doing a lot of things with 100 Days of Code. So, Julian, before we get into all this stuff, could you introduce yourself?

Who are you?


Good day, Brian. Thank you for having me on the show. Happy to be here. Yeah. I’m Julian Sequira. I’m a co founder of Pi Bytes, which is a Python block that I started with one of my best mates, Bob Bellbos. I believe he’s been on Python Bites with you guys before. You and Mike.


And yes. So I run this blog with Bob. We have a Code challenge platform called Codechallenge Es.

I’m a Talk Python trainer. I’ve made the 100 Days of Code in Python course with Mike Kennedy and Bob as well. And that’s just all on the side by day. I’m actually an AWS worker, and I work in one of the data centers in Sydney, so that’s pretty much all I can say about that. But that’s me in a nutshell.

All right. We also had the pleasure of running into each other at PyCon at least last year.

You went and we got to hang out and have dinner and stuff in Ohio. Will you be there this year as well?

Oh, yeah, 2019. I can’t wait. It’s going to be a big Python, I think so. I’m looking forward to it.

That will be good. I’ve kind of been following both you and Bob for a long time, I guess, ever since the Pie Bites showed up. Did you know Bob before? You guys don’t even live in the same country.

Yeah. So we like to keep it that way. We can’t stand each other in person. Really.

So Bob is actually one of my best mates. We met when we worked in the old Sun Micro Systems. So anyone out there who’s a tech head would probably know what that company is. And that was a long time ago. That was probably 1012 years ago. I’d say that we met and this was just online within sun, working together on some random project. And we pretty much realized it was pretty much love at first site. And we decided we had some very mutual interests and stuff like that, and we were able to work on that. And we just decided to work a project one day and we couldn’t figure it out and that’s when we said, let’s learn Python together. And we did that through making a blog.

Okay. So he has experience with other languages, but you’re learning Python together.

Yeah. So at the time, he wasn’t really using Python and he wanted to do it, but he had experienced a lot of experience with coding, and I didn’t. I just wanted to learn something because I was pretty much hardware based and. Yeah. So that’s when he said, well, look, why don’t you learn Python? And I used it to make a little script for myself when we worked for Oracle and he was using it professionally. And so that’s how we formed the blog. We thought, what a great aspect. Bob would be the experienced guy and I would be the complete newbie I’d come in and I’d be doing the really basic stuff going, what is the list? What is this? What is that? And Bob would be covering the really advanced stuff, and it’s worked really well. We’re pretty much three days ago, we hit two years for Pi Bytes, which is massive for us. So we’re pretty happy.

And then you branch that into things like the code challenges and the 100 Days of Code thing. So code challenges.

So that started out as like, just was it email or just GitHub or tell me about that.

So we actually started doing community code challenges, which were just free code challenges we’d send out every week. And this was through the Pie Bites community. And it was just free. We challenge people, let’s do this. And we’d do the challenge as well. Right. Which was half the fun. We did it so that we would be forced to learn. We’d be put in the spotlight and have no excuse. And that just sort of really got popular and built up. It was really surprising how many people started joining in and liked it and whatever. And that is what inspired us to go well. One of the biggest issues people have is getting the whole GitHub thing set up, getting their pull requests in, getting the whole environment set up. We thought, wouldn’t it be cool if you could code some of these challenges just directly in your browser?

It was like an epiphany. And that’s where Codechallenge Es, our coding platform came from. You literally don’t need any dependencies. You don’t need to do anything local. You just code in a web browser. And there are challenges there for you to do. Actually, we just hit, as of yesterday, I think, 150 unique challenges in that platform. So it’s really cool. It’s funny to see how it transitioned from just us starting a blog to us now having this platform where you can code, it’s really cool.

It is cool. It’s pretty fun, too. Now, I haven’t played with it for a while. I played with it early on. Could you remind me, are there still like a few free ones there that people can try out or is it just a paid platform?

So it’s both, right.

If you log in with your GitHub credentials because it all is linked to your GitHub profile, you can actually code for free. There are a bunch of free ones there. There’s a whole introductory path. There’s a lot you can do for free. But obviously there is a paid tier because there are running costs and this is very time consuming. But it’s quite a cheap subscription model because we just want you to code, right? I mean, the greatest way to learn to code is by actually coding.

I didn’t know what I would think of this coding in a browser thing, but what you’ve put together is actually pretty darn fun. I like it. Another question about that before we move on is you said there’s over 100 challenges. Now do I have to do them an order or kind of jump around or how does that work, man?

You can do whatever you want whenever you want. So if you sign up for the premium tier, it’s like a library, right? We like to call it our Netflix model. You just got access to the entire thing. You probably sit there for 20 minutes going, which one do I want to do? Do I want to work on either tools? Do I want to touch Flask? Do I want to do this? Do that. Whatever. They’re in different categories from super beginner through to advanced. So if you do get stuck, you can make yourself a bit happier and go back to a beginner one quickly. It doesn’t matter. Your progress is saved. All of it is in the browser. Everything is stored there. So you can just close the tab and you won’t lose anything as long as you hit save. The thing that’s really cool about it is that you have the ability to see the solution, but only after two days of starting that specific bite or challenge.

Okay, you kind of have to try it a little bit, but if you get stuck, you’re not going to get stuck forever.

Yeah, I’m sure you felt this way at some point, but some of the most memorable moments in your coding career would probably be where you are really stuck and you are struggling for a day, and then you finally got it and you were like, I’m never going to forget that again. That’s sort of what we like about this is that you can get stuck in a challenge and you can’t get that solution. You can’t even access the forum for that bite for that challenge until you’ve completed it, because we don’t want you to. Not that it’s cheating, I suppose, but we want you to struggle at some point when you learn the best. Right?

Right. So do you guys have feedback from the community to say, hey, I was stuck on this for a while, but I think it wasn’t me. I think it was like your description was kind of bad and could you change it or something? Do you get any feedback like that?

You do all the time.


It’s one of those things, right? Even me, I still consider myself because I compare myself to Bob a lot. I consider myself to be the beginner, but clearly I’ve come a long way since I started this a couple of years ago. And there are still things that both of us assume people just understand. And this is part of the development process of anything. Right. And we assume that some people might understand what this methodology is or what this concept is. And then people come to us and go, well, hey, I’m a complete zero beginner. I have no idea what you’re talking about.

And we have to go back. Oh, yeah. In some cases. I’ve even gotten my wife to have a look at this and she’s read over it and going, this is like Spanish to me, which is English for Bob, I suppose. But for me, that’s the indicator that. Yeah, we need to really clarify this or simplify it.

Okay, nice. Now there’s testing in there, too, so that people can tell whether they got the answer. Right.

Yeah. So as you go, there are two options here. Half of this is on the premium tier. As with anything for premium users, you can run your code without testing it. So you actually have a little shell in the browser that if you hit run it’ll, run the code without running the tests against it. That’s for premium only. Now, if you’re on the free tier, you can run the tests only. So if you actually hit the save and run test button, it will run a series of Pi test tests against your code and tell you if you successfully completed the bite, there’s no limit to how many times you can run it. We do track it, though, because there is a bit of gamification there and you’ll get a thing saying you’ve completed this bite and how many tests or whatever, you can see that, and it’s really cool. So obviously, if your premium, you get that little added benefit of being able to run your code without running the tests to see what the output is going to be. And you can view the tests as part of something we include to allow users to really figure out how their data needs to be formed. It’s almost like test based coding. So you see the test, you know how to form your answer. It’s not always that it doesn’t really simplify things too much, but it gives you a unique approach because then people could return anything, right? Yeah.

And I know that writing test isn’t the point of your program. Like, Trey Hunter does this, too. He’s doing his Morsels thing where it’s an email based thing. Well, he has some online stuff, too, but part of it is providing tests and it’s a neat thing to add, showing people tests because so many people don’t understand how to translate from requirements or from a problem statement to how do I write tests to verify that it is working? It often doesn’t take that many. Sometimes it’s just two or three tests and they’re not even that big to verify that the solution is working. It’s pretty sweet. So I did want to jump into 100 Days of code. How did you guys get into the 100 days of code?

We were on social media pretty much. And we saw people tweeting about this on Twitter. We saw random articles and we thought this would be really cool, but we were coding every day anyway, so we thought, well, this is kind of a cop out. This is a bit of a cheating thing going on if we just suddenly say, yeah, we’re coding every day.

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Backing up a little Bit if I’ve never heard of 100 Days ago, what is it?

Yeah, so it’s a methodology to get you coding. The idea behind is you code just a little bit every day for 100 days. It’s all about building that habit, get that going. And the idea is 30 to 60 minutes. I suppose you could apply to anything, really. But this is code, specifically 30 to 60 minutes of intentional coding. So the consensus is that it can incorporate things like video watching, reading a book, anything to do with learning code. But Bob and I, we wanted it to be more intentional programming. So rather than saying, hey, I watched a half hour tutorial today. Well, no, we wanted to make something. And so what we did was we decided to write a script every day for 100 days.

And it was pure insanity.

I remember being halfway through the challenge and thinking, what have we done? There’s still 50 days left.

Oh, goodness, it’s like a third of a year, man.

It was. And I still have these memories of waking up on a Saturday morning and sitting there in my pajamas drinking a coffee, trying to come up with something to make, not just an article to write or some little bit of code to work on for a project. It was I have to make a final script, I have to make a product.

And it was painful, but we did it together. So to be completely transparent. That’s 50 each. So technically I wasn’t coding every day for 100 days. We just shared the load.

Still 100 scripts in a GitHub repo. It’s pretty good.

Yeah, definitely. You didn’t necessarily do every other.

Yeah, okay, nice.

But we got it done in the end. And I’ll tell you what a sensation when you finish it, it was great.

So there’s 100 that you came up with. Are they kind of like the challenges or you understand?

So tell me about that. And how does that relate?

They do link a little bit. We did go there at the very start to that repo for inspiration, for the challenges and vice versa. Right where we’re trying to come up with scripts to write. We go to our existing challenge base and think, is there something from here we could make something that could inspire a challenge, something that can inspire a script? But look, to be honest, other than that, there’s not much of a correlation that once we got that done, that’s sat there, that’s done, and we’ve pretty much used all we can from it. Okay, yeah.

You did the 100 days course with TAC Python. What is that? What’s in that?

That course was actually born from the challenge. After Bob and I completed it, we were on Mike’s podcast and the feedback was so positive and strong that we were thinking about it. And what we noticed on Twitter, as you do your 100 days, you’re supposed to put a hashtag and a tweet almost to keep you liable for what you’re doing, to keep you dedicated to the cause. And we noticed a trend that not a lot of people were getting to 100.

They get to maybe day 20 and they’d start petering off a bit or they Plateau or they’d hit a wall and say, well, I don’t know what to do now.

I’ve worked the project I wanted to do, what do I do? And that inspired us to go, well, what if we walk people through the hundred days? Because if you’re going to spend a half an hour just trying to come up with what to code, there’s your half hour of code gone. And not a lot of people have this time. A lot of people have 3 hours to code. So we made this course. It walks you through so many different topics. There’s SQL Alchemy, there’s Flask, there’s pytest, there’s the Excel module for Python.

The list goes on. It’s all on the course page, which in the course notes show notes here. But yeah, the idea is you get a three day batch and we teach you to code throughout those three days. And you’re also given we’ve formed it in such a way that you get time to code. So nobody should just be sitting there watching videos and nothing else.


If there is, there may be a couple of days like that, but if there is, we pretty much guide you through. Okay. You’ve watched the videos today. So for the next two days, you’re doing this specifically and this specifically not. Hey, why not try this? We’re going to tell you exactly what to do. And that’s what’s made it a huge success for us. It’s actually been massively successful because people don’t have to think they can focus. Yeah. And that’s it. Right. Anything that stops you from thinking is fantastic.

No, but they’re thinking. They’re thinking about code. They just don’t think about the decision. That really doesn’t matter exactly.

Focus on the thing they set out to do, which is learn to code.

Yeah. We don’t want to get people to not think. At least I don’t.


Yeah, probably that’s what Netflix is for.

You told me that you had possibly some success stories from this.


So tell me more.

A lot more people have made it to the end now that they’ve got the course. Some people have struggled, but the success story, we obviously have the more common success stories where people say, this is fantastic. My day job is purely based around this module or this part of Python. So doing the course has been fantastic because I’ve learned flask, I’ve learnt all these other different things I otherwise never would have had access to because of my standard day job. So we have those stories that’s actually quite inspiring to us to keep going with this sort of concept. But one of the really awesome ones, there are actually two really cool ones I want to mention here. One of the guys is actually based in Sydney. His name is Peter. You’ve probably seen him on Twitter because he’s very active. He took the course and throughout the whole time doing the course, he had extensive notes on his tweets. He was keeping in touch with Bob and myself, giving us active feedback. And he completed the 100 days. And I’ve told him this because we’ve met in person now. I said, you’re insane. He’s finished that. And then he started and has now completed 100 days of machine learning.

Oh, wow.

I know, right? He’s another. But he’s such a great guy and he’s just after taking the course, his personality, he’s a very passionate guy, obviously. But after taking the course and Pete, I’m sorry, I’m going to take a little bit of credit for this man.

He was so inspired to just keep learning. He just loved the fact that this 100 days wrapper around Python was forcing him to learn more than he’s ever learned. And he finished it. And he didn’t want to lose that feeling. He didn’t want to lose that momentum. And he’s just started his own 100 days of machine learning based on some other course. He just wrapped it in 100 days. Not only has he done that, he’s been more active in the community. He’s attended a conference, a workshop out here in Sydney that he invited me to, but I decided to skip town that weekend. And the enthusiasm that the course brought out in Pete and really helped him to grow Python was absolutely massive. And that, to me, is one of our greatest success stories. I really love that story.

That’s awesome. So two years ago you go from trying to learn some code yourself to now you’re inspiring people all over the world to learn to code. That’s pretty amazing.

Yes. And to be completely humble, I’m not even a pro. Right? I mean, I’m still learning. I was at work the other day, so now I’m holding some workshops at AWS. I participate in stuff and help my teammates with code issues they might have. And I still have to sit there and look stuff up and I’m going, oh, yeah, I did that once.

Let me look at my notes.


But it’s just that passion, I think, that really speaks volumes.

Well, that’s one of the things, hopefully most programmers, developers are always learning. They’re always learning new things. But one of the side effects of that is the blogs and the books and the people I’m paying attention to to learn.

They all know more than me about the thing I’m trying to learn. So I don’t spend a lot of time looking back and reading about stuff I already know about, of course. So it always looks like somebody knows the world knows more than I do, mostly just because I’m continually learning. So I’m paying attention to the things I’m learning from.

Yeah, that’s exactly right. And that leads into part of the next idea. There was our community. We’ve built this massive pie bites community through the course, through the Code challenges platform, through the blog. Everything sort of pours into this one bucket, our Slack community. And it’s just filled with the most amazing people.

I remember Bob and I had this discussion about starting this community, and I thought, how are we going to prevent cruelty and mean people and abuse? And that’s stuff you tend to worry about when you’re talking about a heap of people in one place. But it’s just a testament to the Python community in general.

They’re so respectful in this group. Everyone is so helpful lately as well with things that have been going on. I’ve had to switch off and just mute Slack because there’s so much conversation. But there are people just they talk about the course, they talk about the day jobs, Python, and it’s heavily Python and industry conversation. It’s not much. Hey, I went to the beach on the weekend.

People are talking about complications at work, projects. They’re working on cool articles. They found a lot of your stuff pops up there every week. You have your podcast, this podcast, and people are sharing it. Some of the guests you’ve had on here are in the community as well. And it’s this huge meshing of people that just talk about code. And it’s actually really inspiring because some of them.

There’s one guy who’s one of our greatest friends in the community. His name’s Martin. He started out as an almost complete novice with Python, and I’m going to tell you now, this guy knows probably twice as much as me. He is incredible. And it’s through the course, it’s through the community, it’s through the challenge platform. He’s just constantly pushing and learning.

So how do people get into that?

Is there a sign up sheet or something?

Because it is Slack. We couldn’t automate that too much. There was a limitation with the API, but there is a link in the show notes today that’s linked to get into that community. Okay, if you’re on the blog, there’s pretty much links everywhere saying, hey, join us and you click it and you jump in.

For some reason, I don’t remember how long ago I started the Slack Channel for this podcast. It’s kind of around the Python testing.net blog and this podcast and the Pipe Test book. Just people having questions about that stuff. I had people asking me for something like that, like either a forum or something like that. So I started this lack. And my fear at first was I was going to get a whole bunch of questions about stuff I didn’t know how to answer, like not specific to Pipe Test or something. I can figure that out. But if somebody asks, well, how do I test this thing? And it’s not the kind of software that I’m familiar with, I might not know how to do that. The neat thing about that is it’s perfectly fine to say I’m not sure. Let’s ask other people. The other thing is I don’t have to answer very many questions. The community in there is so smart and they’re helping each other out that it’s just kind of incredible. And there’s times where it goes silent for a few days and there’s no activity and then somebody will ask a question and then there’s just a flurry of activity.

It’s great to see stuff like that. And I was also afraid of the whole like, do I need a terms and conditions or a code of conduct or something? And for the most part, people are just pretty nice to each other.

Yes, exactly right.

And then somebody said the other day, is it okay if I mention somebody else’s podcast?

And I’m like, yeah, of course, this is just a community for you guys if you want to. It’s pretty much community driven and plus it would be really hard for me to stop it anyway if I want.

Yeah, I don’t even know if that’s possible, but I probably wouldn’t do that unless there was some big problem. But do you know how many people are hanging out in your community?

That is a very good question. I can check right now. Last time I checked, I think it was like 4500, something like that.

That’s great. And it probably ebbs and flows and stuff.

Yeah. Obviously, you get people because you get that slack report every week and you get people who just sort of go silent. So obviously there aren’t 500 people talking all at once.

But for the most part, look at that. Just open it. Now we’re smack on 500. Okay.

So it’s pretty good. And that’s one of the things, actually, is when you can see that everything that we’re doing with Bob and I’ve got and I’m sure you’re in the same boat. You’ve got the day job, you’ve got the family, you’ve got all your different commitments, including trying to develop a new content, articles, projects with other people and whatnot. And then you’ve got 500 people here talking, and you want to jump in like, you see some of these conversations. You’re like, I want to talk about that. And I’ll see it coming through on my phone at work because these guys, everyone here is from around the world, and I’ll be in the data center, and my phone will be going off with people having this great conversation. I’d be like, no, you can’t talk right now. You can’t jump in there, because then there goes the day job, right?


And it’s just incredible. Sometimes you do have to take that step back and just let them talk, which is awesome. And I try and get involved as much as I can, but I do have to carve out my time very carefully because I only have a couple of hours a day, tops, to work on this stuff.

That’s half the fun.

Yeah. Okay. For people wanting to check out the types of stuff that you’re up to, we’ve got Codechallenge Es, which is a cool name, by the way, and Where’s Pybites again?

So Pi Bytes is using the same domain, so P-Y-B-I-T-E-S.

We really love that Spanish domain. You can blame Bob for that.

Okay, well, he’s actually from Spain, so it’s not even cheating.

I know he gets away with it.

We’ll put all these links and stuff in the show notes, of course. But is there anything that we haven’t touched on that you wanted to cover today?

One other cool thing I did want to mention, one of the success stories as well, was I’ll make it quick. We’ve had two community members who have gone through the course and the challenge platform, both of them. We’ve had them land their first Python jobs.

Oh, that’s awesome.

Yeah. They actually came back to us and even wrote a testimonial saying, hey, look, I just want to thank you guys. I’ve gone for my first coding interview. And thanks to the course and the platform, I’ve got a coding job. It’s my dream come true. I’m working from home. I’m doing this. I’m doing that. And our mind was blown. We were like, Whoa, people are actually getting insane value from this, right? And it’s such a good feeling because we’re up till midnight some nights. We’re currently on a development push for another project and I’m up till 1130 midnight every day and I’m waking up at 530 with my kids, so I’m exhausted. But seeing stuff like that is so worthwhile it makes it just amazing. And people are loving it because both the platform and the course work hand in hand as you do the course. You can use the platform to tweet out your progress without having to you can automate it without having to go and type something out every day. And the course shows you how to do that. But it’s all these little things and people just love it if you have it. With my call to action, I suppose is if you haven’t tried it, just give it a try because there’s a whole bunch of free stuff and it’s so much fun. And we actually have some really cool stuff being developed at the moment for the Code Challenges platform. And if you follow us on Twitter, you’ll see us announce that hopefully in a week from now.

Hopefully somebody wants to think they just want to do the 100 days. It seems like a good idea, but they don’t want to spend any money. They don’t have to. Right. I mean, they could just say look at the code challenges that you guys have publicly available or other people’s problems or other stuff and just spend some time every day for 100 days. Just learn how to code, right?

Yeah, it’s really just almost a technique for learning. Right. Just wrapped in a nice name. It would be like doing a Pomodoro technique for 100 days straight. There’s not much to it, but yeah, apply it to anything. Apply it to code. Actually, what we did was as well. We really liked was we used that Code Challenges platform to give users the ability to create their own 100 days challenge, or Grid, as we call it. So you can fill in what you want to do for 100 days using our platform and you can keep track of it just right there. Yeah. It has nothing to do with coding platform, nothing to do with the challenges. You can prefill your own challenges into that 100 days and select what you want to do. Or you can just simply put in whatever you want, like if you’re watching 100 videos. So Bob actually and one of the other guys, Martin, they kicked off a hundred days of watching Python videos from 2018. So they watched a video for 100 days and something simple. Right. But there was a tweet going out every day. You could do whatever you want. It’s actually really cool.

The thing I like about some of the things, one of the things I like about the challenges and the code challenges that you guys do is it’s not a huge commitment into any sort of type of programming. Like you said, you’re going to learn database stuff or you’re going to learn Flask or something. It’s not a huge time commitment, but I’m going to learn a different type of programming that I might not be doing all the time. And then during the course of that, there may be a few of them that you’re like, man, I really had fun with this. I want to go farther into this and learn more about that and that you wouldn’t have even stumbled across had you just been doing what you need to do every day for work or something. Yeah, exactly.

And it’s quite funny you say that because it sort of inspired my love affair with Flask. I’m using Flask for everything I can think of because having to do it for that course, I was like, this is amazing.

But what a lot of people don’t realize as well is I haven’t taken the entire course. I did my section right there’s still Bob’s section and Mike Kennedy’s section, and I haven’t gone through that.

So I’ve gone through it for editing purposes, but I haven’t gone through it as an actual student.

So some of the stuff they’ve got I was working on some SQL alchemy recently and I went, oh, yeah, Mike did a section of that in the course, brought up the course, watched this video. I’m like, oh, yeah, that makes sense now. Fantastic. So it’s really cool. Not only did we make this for ourselves and for the community and whatever, but we made it to learn from each other as well. These are two great guys I can learn from, and they referenced some of my Flask stuff and some of my other content, and we’re learning from each other as well. So we’re not just these trainers who have just written something and read off a piece of paper. This was a true labor of love and passion that we put this together for each other and for the community.

Yeah, it was a lot of work, too. I remember when Michael was working on it with you guys, he was very happy that it was over when you guys finally finished.

Yeah, I know you’ll be laughing about that soon. Yeah. But that’s why when we went to Python this year in 2018, meeting Mike and having that first beer. Oh, man, that was a satisfying beer.


You hadn’t met Michael in person before you did the challenges together with him.

Exactly. I’d never met Mike and I hadn’t met Bob, man, it was great. Like I got to Cleveland probably 9 hours or something before Bob arrived. So I had half a day there and I met him for the first time that evening at about 09:00 p.m. Or 10:00 p.m. Or something.

You didn’t even know whether or not you’d like each other in person then?

No. And I still don’t like him. He’s like ten foot tall and I’m like five foot.

Every time I look at him, I get a neck ache, so I’m glad he’s on the other end of a camera right now.


I’m going to wrap it up and thanks a whole bunch for coming on the show. It was a lot of fun.

Yeah, definitely. I had a blast. Thank you so much, Brian. I appreciate it.

Thanks again to Digital ocean for sponsoring grab your $100 credit at testandcode.com DigitalOcean that link is also in the show notes at testincode.com 60 the show notes page also has links to everything we talked about today. Thanks to Julian again for talking with me and thank you thank you for listening for sharing the show with friends and colleagues and for pitching in with the cost of the show through Patreon, for giving the show a rating in itunes and for checking out Digital ocean through the link in the show notes. That’s all for now. Now go out and test something bye.